On Europe Day, when Romania celebrates 10 years of membership in the European Union, the President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis, spoke in an exclusive interview with CaleaEuropeană.ro about the benefits of European integration for Romania, about the Euro-enthusiasm of Romanians, about the future of the European project and avoiding a multi-speed Europe, about the challenges for the European construction but also about Romania’s goals within the European project: joining the euro, joining the Schengen area and ensuring the rotating presidency of the EU Council in the first half of 2019.
Dan Cărbunaru: Good morning, Mr. President. Thank you very much for the honor you have given to our editorial office – CaleaEuropeana.ro – on this special occasion, Europe Day, to interview you on European issues, challenges and opportunities.
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: Good morning. It is my pleasure and welcome to Cotroceni Palace.
Dan Cărbunaru: We are preparing for celebration in Europe. We do not always have reasons to celebrate, but a glimmer of hope comes from the most recent Eurobarometer, which indicates that at EU and Romania’s levels, we rediscover our confidence in the European project. A majority of the Romanians – over 50% – believe that being a part of the European Union is a good thing. It’s been 10 years since we are in. We confront ourselves with populist and anti-European waves. How do you see this orientation and this pro-European breath that seems to give us confidence?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: This pro-European attitude it characterizes us from the beginning, even if we have to recognize that when Romania became a part of the European Union our pro-European enthusiasm was more profound. At that time, many journalists from Europe came to ask me how I, as a mayor, see this. I described at that moment the Romanians attitude as an Euro-phoria. We had then incredible confidence quotes, almost 80 percent of Romanians being pro-EU. Things have evolved, but not necessarily regarding pro-European perceptions. However, he have to be confident enough and satisfied by the fact that a majority of the Romanians are convinced that the European Union is a good project and that they want to be a part of it.
Dan Cărbunaru: In 2005, you witnessed the signing ceremony of the Accession Treaty. You have succeeded, through Sibiu, to show Europeanness at a time when our country was not formally part of the European Union. Today, generically speaking, you are present alongside European leaders at important moments – I am referring to the Rome Declaration – where you are trying to reinforce this project after three relevant political reports have been approved in the European Parliament. In addition, Mr. Juncker, through the White Paper, proposes at least five variants to go together. What should Romanians know in this context?
I am among the politicians that care about the European Union (Klaus Iohannis)
President of Romania: Here are several remarks that I would want to make. The European Union has gone through various crises, through some successfully, through others has passed without registering a great success. For instance, the economic crisis has not been overcome with great success. Until these days, there are countries in the European Union with a slow economic growth that we can not even talk about growth. Here, fortunately, Romania is a laudable exception, with substantial economic growth from year to year. One on the other, the European Union has never faced so many crises at the same time. We still have the consequences of the economic crisis, which has not been completely overcome. We are optimistic, but we have to understand it. We have Brexit which, wether we want it or not, affects all of us and we have Eurosceptic and anti-European populism tides that in some countries have become very consistent. In this context we may observe some things that determine us to understand Romanians attitude. What the European Union does, from my perspective, is well done and it helps everyone. But as it happens in politics, good news are not news and we do not talk about these aspects. In so many sectors the impact of being a part of the European Union has been a very positive one. I am talking here about Romania and about Romanians. But sometimes this things are not mentioned. We do not make an exception here – many politicians across European countries focus on national and local issues and they use the European Union only when they want to accuse someone. Unfortunately, during our general elections campaign we have seen this attitudes, when different parties, including top ones, thought that it is a good idea to attack the European Union and to be anti-Brussels. This is an approach I find it improper, counter-productive that helped no one, but damaged a lot. Such approaches have been used in other countries and I believe this has lead to a revival of Eurosceptics and of forces that have declared themselves against the European project. It is a good thing that politicians who care about the European Union – I am one of them – have started to discuss about the future of the European Union. We believe we need strong messages. A strong message can be one that is only focused on the future and in this context we began in the European Council the discussion regarding the future of the European Union. This topic has been also very debated in our country and this fact pleases me. I have seen an increased interest on the European Union’s future, paradoxically, even from politicians that seem very Eurosceptic. Then, in a natural and institutional way the White Paper was released, in order to be a document that impels the discussion about the future of the European Union. This is how the five scenarios and the famous debate about multi-speed Europe came up.
”Whether a project of the European Union is agreed by everyone or just by a group of countries, any project must remain open to all members”
Dan Cărbunaru: One European country has decided to decouple itself and I am referring to the United Kingdom. You recently took park to a special European summit dedicated to this issue. You said back then that people are more important than money in these negotiations. There are hundreds of thousands of Romanians in the United Kingdom. What can Romania and the President do in this negotiating context for the Romanians there?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: For me, people have always been more important than money. This is why I stressed this principle in my approaches towards the media, but also in the European Council. In some areas we feel the tendency to leave people behind and handle trade our industrial issues. This is an approach I do not agree with and, therefore, I said in a challenging way: first people, then money. But before entering into the Brexit topic and its effects on the Romanian citizens living in UK, let’s take a deeper look on the matter of European Union’s future because the debate is just getting started. In Romania some people, wrongly informed, had the impression that we have concluded this discussion. It has been discussed, indeed, in different formats – in the European Council and not only – about the so called multi-speed Europe and a concentric circles Europe. We have tackled this approaches and, as some might observed, other leaders had the same opinion I presented in the European Council, that it is not good to have a multi-speed Europe. We cannot include in a declaration about the future of Europe that we want it to be a multi-speed one. This doesn’t mean that we are blind and that we do not see that member countries – 27, without UK – have different approaches regarding some European projects, have very different development levels, have different ambitions, but I did not want to accept defining this realities as a multi-speed Europe. We all want to decide, as we decide now, that Romania wants to be in the core of the European Union. In any case, we do not want to return to the artificial division between Eastern and Western Europe, because this would be the result if such a model would be applied. These arguments and others have convinced the relevant politicians and national leaders to quit this approach of multi-speed Europe or concentrical circles. It is obvious that we have to be flexible. There are European projects that some want to join immediately, others maybe later. There are projects that are agreed from the beginning by some states and others want to see first how they work. I can give one simple example: the eurozone. Romania still has the strategic objectives of adopting the single currency, but we cannot say if this will happen in three or five years. Also, we still do not have a very firm agenda because of the political parties agenda. But now this is just an example of a European project where not everyone is involved, respectively not everyone is involved immediately. What I have stressed, and everyone agreed on it, is that whether a project of the European Union is agreed by everyone or just by a group of countries, any project must remain open to all members. I believe that this the way to avoid successfully this multi-speed approach.
Brexit is an unilateral and unhappy decision of the UK to leave the European Union
Returning to Brexit and the Romanian citizens that live in UK. Brexit is not an European project. I often find it somehow surprising that there are people who have the impression that we have agreed on Brexit. No way. It is an unilateral and unhappy decision of the UK to leave the European Union. With this optic we should look at the issue. It is not a project that we all 28 worked for and agreed that UK is leaving. Romanian citizens that are currently living in UK are somehow the victims of these discussions and they are not the only ones. The single market with its four liberties have offered the framework for millions of Europeans to move abroad, to find a job in another country, starting from the premise that these freedoms are well defined, remain worthwhile and probably nothing will change during their lifetime. Through the UK referendum things have changed. We cannot start negotiations that turn citizens into victims. On the other hand, if we speak about our Romanians I am determined to engage very strongly in these discussions in order to ensure that Romanian rights are respected. I am not the only head of state or government that will engage for their citizens. Similar approaches we can see from Poland, that has a larger number of citizens living there. On the other hand, the very positive result of these approaches that I have advocated for is that the first issue to be negotiated is precisely the citizens’ rights. I believe that in the end we will find good solutions for this chapter and I can start from the premise that Romanians living and working in the UK have nothing to fear. Their rights will be defended we will go together as 27 in these negotiations in order to obtain full rights for our citizens.
Brexit: There will be no bilateral negotiations and deals. The only feasible way is conducting the negotiations as a team
Dan Cărbunaru: In this context, mr. President, an advantage will be to resist the temptation, applicable to other states, of bilateral negotiations with UK, although it has been explicitly said it should not happen.
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: From the beginning we discussed some principles and it was obvious that this danger of bilateral negotiations to the detriment of team-type negotiations exists. I have to say that no member states supported the idea of prioritising bilateral talks. Everyone understood very quickly why it is absolutely necessary and the only feasible way is to task a negotiation team that represents EU-27, to have a negotiation framework agreed in the European Council, to have an agreed framework with the European Parliament and to conduct this negotiation as a team. There is no other feasible approach and we had no attempts from EU-27 to negotiate in other formats. Our last decision confirmed this: Eu-27 is a united union that will negotiate as a one team, in one voice and will be fully involved in these negotiations. There will be not bilateral deals, no bilateral negotiations, even if the British side would want this. We do not have this desire.
The Government and the Central Bank must work to set a timetable for joining the eurozone
Dan Cărbunaru: Thank you for this additional clarification. You mentioned a little earlier in a wider package of about our integration in the European Union this still unfixed perspective of joining the euro area. Do you have an estimate, at least technical, if not political, about this form of integration in the European project?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: I have a political evaluation and, somewhat, a technical one. The political assessment was mentioned before. Joining the euro area it is an important strategic objective of Romania. From a technical point of view, Romania meets the Maastricht criteria for some time, and in this way we could begin building an accession calendar, but things are not very clear among the factors that need to set this timetable and which must lead it further, in this case the Government and the National Bank of Romania. Perhaps it will take a while for this new government to understand its role in the architecture of our state and begin to assess these things. Even the opinions of the specialists are not identical. There are some who might be in a hurry, who say that we are ready and that we should have a timetable and move forward, there are others who say that we are not so well prepared, that we should have a calendar that provides a longer period. I do not want to go into this matter now. At the stage in which we find ourselves now, it is the job of the specialists to discuss until they come to a common point of view. The fact is that we have to take into account a few other things than those strict technical criteria. It is good to evaluate very deeply the impact on fiscal policy if we establish such a timetable. We need to assess whether our eurozone accession must occur in order to have what is called an anchor or if we want to wait until Romania’s economy is well established. Many points of view need to be harmonized. The point is that it would be good and agreement between the Government with the National Bank to start working on a timetable. The decision will not immediately lead to an accession to the eurozone. Technically, it takes several years of preparation and the sooner we set our stage goals, the better.
Romania has no enemies within the European Union, just a lot of friends
Dan Cărbunaru: Apparently, our accession to the Schengen area is simpler, where technically almost everyone recognizes that we are prepared, including the European institutions. From your knowledge, which countries are still opposing to our accession and what should Romania do in addition to enter the free movement space?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: You want me to say something surprising? The only country that really opposes the accession is Romania. By the unfortunate way in which we legislate, by the unfortunate way in which we issue emergency ordinances, generally by the unfortunate way we show that we do not know very well what we want. I am referring now to the ordinance 13, to the CVM, where the priority target – the judiciary system – has done its job. We’re fine. On the other side – Parliament and politicians – we still have issues to solve, and approaches like ordinance 13, even if they disappear, show to many European politicians that things are still unstable in Romania as regards the approach to what is called the rule of law. And the approaches of some very visible politicians, with very high positions in our state, who cast doubt on Brussels or the European Union does not help us at all. On the contrary, they confirm that we still have a lot of politicians in Romania who did not quite understand how it is with the rule of law, which are the fundamental values of the European Union and that we still have politicians who have a nationalist grasp in a negative way. They have the impression that, in quotes, “the Union has nothing to do with our internal affairs.” Well, if the Union has nothing to do with us, why are we members there, why are we part of if we do not want to get involved? Such poorly understood approaches by politicians prolong this discussion. Otherwise, for technical reasons, I can tell you that no one opposes, but the political opposition has existed and the only way to eliminate it is to show that we are serious people. Here we have to work. We have no enemies in the European Union, contrary to what some politicians have said to us. On the contrary, we have a lot of friends and we have a lot of people who are looking forward with optimism to us being able to understand the European values. Personally, I’m optimistic. I think things are going in a good direction, but it would be much easier without such sideslips as were some assertions from the electoral campaign or the unfortunate ordinance 13 or the recent ordinance related to the procedure on ANCOM (National Authority for Administration and Regulation in Communications).
Dan Cărbunaru: Mr. President, you mentioned the CVM – Cooperation and Verification Mechanism – a “gift” that Romania has accepted since the year of accession and which we still have. Do you hope that until the end of your first term or at the end of your term of office now (2019), the monitoring will stop? Do you still see this time horizon and do you think we still need MCV?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: It is possible to go further on what is called phasing-out technical terms, which means that we are reaching the end of the CVM monitoring. Even in these days, we have visiting examiners who check how much progress has been made in this area, but the discussion rests exactly on the same issues as I have mentioned before.
”The European Union is a project I have been very much involved with from the beginning. I am attached to the European Union”
Dan Cărbunaru: I hope that we have the opportunity to discuss the organization of the Romanian Presidency of the Council in 2019, wich is also an important political year. The Brexit could close under our presidency, we will have the European Parliament elections, but also presidential elections, Mr. President. I have to ask you in this context, politically difficult, not just technically, this rotating presidency managed by Romania and our presidential elections. It will be the end of your first term, maybe it will be the preparation of the beginning of the second? How complicated for you as President will be to handle this period?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: For me it will not be complicated or simple. The European Union is a project I have been very much involved with from the beginning. I am attached to the European Union, I said it and I think everyone knows. I hope there is no surprise. I want Romania to make a very good figure there. Personally, I’m going to get involved where I can and where it needs to be so we have a good presidency. Slowly, the Government also understood that more than political statements are needed to be prepared. Our Brussels office is also preparing for this presidency. I have lately noticed that even Parliament is, at least declaratively, prepared to support the preparations for the presidency in 2019. So if we are all working, not just the President, but also the Government, and the Parliament, we can turn the presidency not only in a bureaucratic success, but we can turn it into an opportunity for Romania. It would be the first time we can set new agenda in certain areas, when we can define certain priorities of Romania and show that we not only want to be in the European Union, but that we also know what we want for Romania and that we have good ideas, including for the whole European Union.
Jean-Claude Juncker’s visit to Romania will strengthen the Romanian institutions’ relationship with the European Commission
Dan Cărbunaru: A final question, Mr. President. In a very short time, Jean-Claude Juncker, the President of the European Commission, will come to Bucharest. You have a special relationship with the head of the European Commission. In 2005, you were present in Luxembourg at the signing of the Accession Treaty, but in 2007, Luxembourg led by Prime Minister Juncker and Sibiu led by Mayor Iohannis managed this beautiful European Capital of Culture project. You arrived in 2014 as President, while Mr. Juncker became President of the Commission that same year. What will be your message for Mr. Juncker, who comes to Romania to a dialogue with the citizens, but also for a dialogue with the Romanian officials?
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: First of all, you must know that President Juncker comes to my invitation, so I look forward to meet him. Indeed, we have a long relationship, and I think this is very good for our efforts to become European and more involved and more visible. It is a very good coincidence that the visit President of the Commission has been organized within the days we celebrate Europe Day, but also we celebrate our 10 years of membership. I think it will be a very welcome visit. I welcome the fact that, besides self-understood protocol meetings, he also wants to have a dialogue with the citizens. This visit can only strengthen the relations between the Romanian institutions and the European Commission, and I think that in this context, more people in our country could re-become pro-Europeans.
Dan Cărbunaru: Thank you very much for this optimist message. I am convinced that you refer to all citizens. Thank you very much, Mr. President.
President of Romania, Klaus Iohannis: Thank you.
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